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	<title>Comments on: Labor letting 16-year-olds vote?</title>
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	<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709</link>
	<description>Commentary on elections and politics in Australia and around the world.</description>
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		<title>By: jaxon</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-7847</link>
		<dc:creator>jaxon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-7847</guid>
		<description>im 16 and i think that it&#039;s a very good idea. 16 year olds can live on their own, pay taxes ( as many do ) and learn to drive. it&#039;s not logical for us not to have any say in how our tax is spent and how we would like our country managed. i personally would have to say that the liberals would get my vote, which shows that young people dont just support the labor party and the greens. we should get a vote if this really is a democracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>im 16 and i think that it&#8217;s a very good idea. 16 year olds can live on their own, pay taxes ( as many do ) and learn to drive. it&#8217;s not logical for us not to have any say in how our tax is spent and how we would like our country managed. i personally would have to say that the liberals would get my vote, which shows that young people dont just support the labor party and the greens. we should get a vote if this really is a democracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel MacRae</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6244</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel MacRae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6244</guid>
		<description>Provisional enrolment a part of civics. Does that mean that as a teacher I can decide whether they have the right to vote?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Provisional enrolment a part of civics. Does that mean that as a teacher I can decide whether they have the right to vote?</p>
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		<title>By: Musrum</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6230</link>
		<dc:creator>Musrum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 03:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6230</guid>
		<description>A compromise would be to have Provisional Enrolment done as part of Civics for eligible 15yo school kids.  They would then have the option of extending the provisional period until they are 18yo or have full enrolment (with all the responsibilities) kick in at 16.

I&#039;m sure some kids would still object, but then this is a good way to start a discussion about rights/responsibilities etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A compromise would be to have Provisional Enrolment done as part of Civics for eligible 15yo school kids.  They would then have the option of extending the provisional period until they are 18yo or have full enrolment (with all the responsibilities) kick in at 16.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure some kids would still object, but then this is a good way to start a discussion about rights/responsibilities etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Raue</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6229</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Raue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6229</guid>
		<description>@kme: well obviously this would only apply to people eligible to vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kme: well obviously this would only apply to people eligible to vote.</p>
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		<title>By: kme</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6225</link>
		<dc:creator>kme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6225</guid>
		<description>Ben: But then permanent residents wouldn&#039;t be able to get drivers licenses...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben: But then permanent residents wouldn&#8217;t be able to get drivers licenses&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nick C</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6203</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6203</guid>
		<description>Ben, I&#039;m not particularly attached to that voluntary enrolment idea, I suggested it as an option for addressing some of the concerns that are being raised re compulsory voting. I hadn&#039;t thought that it might discourage enrolment, but that&#039;s a good point, and in that case it would flow through to later in life with more people potentially not enrolling even after they turn 18. I do agree with you on compulsory and universal enrolment, and that as long as voting is compulsory for those over 18, it makes more sense that it should be for 16 &amp; 17 year olds as well (though it probably does make it a harder sell - voluntary voting for everyone 16+ would be the best option in my opinion, but we&#039;re not going to get much agreement on that are we?). 

Re civics education, originally I was suggesting introducing it in conjunction with the lowering of the voting age, and the point I then made is that I think it would be better to treat the two issues separately. If we are arguing that 16 year-olds are generally no less capable of making an informed choice at the ballot box than adults, but then suggest introducing civics education at the same time, as I did, we&#039;re just reinforcing the argument against it. The opposing view is that 16 year-olds aren&#039;t able to make an informed choice, and if we start suggesting that civics education needs to be introduced in conjunction with lowering the voting age we are seen to be implying that 16 year-olds are indeed unable to make an informed choice. I absolutely agree on the importance of civics education, and the two are certainly linked in my mind (or else I wouldn&#039;t have suggested it originally), but when giving further thought to the voting age debate I just felt that discussing the issues separately may be smarter. Maybe I&#039;m over-thinking it though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, I&#8217;m not particularly attached to that voluntary enrolment idea, I suggested it as an option for addressing some of the concerns that are being raised re compulsory voting. I hadn&#8217;t thought that it might discourage enrolment, but that&#8217;s a good point, and in that case it would flow through to later in life with more people potentially not enrolling even after they turn 18. I do agree with you on compulsory and universal enrolment, and that as long as voting is compulsory for those over 18, it makes more sense that it should be for 16 &amp; 17 year olds as well (though it probably does make it a harder sell &#8211; voluntary voting for everyone 16+ would be the best option in my opinion, but we&#8217;re not going to get much agreement on that are we?). </p>
<p>Re civics education, originally I was suggesting introducing it in conjunction with the lowering of the voting age, and the point I then made is that I think it would be better to treat the two issues separately. If we are arguing that 16 year-olds are generally no less capable of making an informed choice at the ballot box than adults, but then suggest introducing civics education at the same time, as I did, we&#8217;re just reinforcing the argument against it. The opposing view is that 16 year-olds aren&#8217;t able to make an informed choice, and if we start suggesting that civics education needs to be introduced in conjunction with lowering the voting age we are seen to be implying that 16 year-olds are indeed unable to make an informed choice. I absolutely agree on the importance of civics education, and the two are certainly linked in my mind (or else I wouldn&#8217;t have suggested it originally), but when giving further thought to the voting age debate I just felt that discussing the issues separately may be smarter. Maybe I&#8217;m over-thinking it though.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Raue</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6196</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Raue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6196</guid>
		<description>Nick, I fundamentally disagree. It would discourage people from enrolling.

I would argue that civics education is closely linked. If 16 year-olds can vote, then we have a much stronger motivation to make sure they are properly educated about our political system.

I also think it would make it easier for us to institute universal enrolment. Why shouldn&#039;t all high school students be enrolled in Year 10 (we could do this without lowering the voting age by pre-enrolling everyone in Year 12). Mind you, we should also make it compulsory to be properly enrolled to get a driver&#039;s licence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, I fundamentally disagree. It would discourage people from enrolling.</p>
<p>I would argue that civics education is closely linked. If 16 year-olds can vote, then we have a much stronger motivation to make sure they are properly educated about our political system.</p>
<p>I also think it would make it easier for us to institute universal enrolment. Why shouldn&#8217;t all high school students be enrolled in Year 10 (we could do this without lowering the voting age by pre-enrolling everyone in Year 12). Mind you, we should also make it compulsory to be properly enrolled to get a driver&#8217;s licence.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick C</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6194</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6194</guid>
		<description>An option for dealing with the voluntary/compulsory issue could be to have voluntary enrolment for 16 &amp; 17 year-olds, but compulsory voting once enrolled. 

It was wrong of me to link civics education to the voting age debate, as doing so invokes and reinforces the arguments against lowering the voting age. They should be treated as separate issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An option for dealing with the voluntary/compulsory issue could be to have voluntary enrolment for 16 &amp; 17 year-olds, but compulsory voting once enrolled. </p>
<p>It was wrong of me to link civics education to the voting age debate, as doing so invokes and reinforces the arguments against lowering the voting age. They should be treated as separate issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel MacRae</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6183</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel MacRae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 03:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6183</guid>
		<description>Excellent to see so much interest in this issue. It is one that should be debated at length. Having been involved in politics at different levels for a long time, even since I was about 15, this issue has been an important one to me. As a teacher now, I have even more of a keen insight into this issue. I thought that maybe with age my view would change. 

There are many facets to it that I will summarise:

1. 16/17 y.o are not mature enough to make such a decision.

I would argue that to a large extent this is true. However, I would argue the same for 18-25 y.o&#039;s. There are many underaged that are well informed to make a decision. They cannot be denied the right to vote.

2. Should it be voluntary or involuntary

This is a big and complicated issue. Should 16/17 y.o&#039;s be given the option to not vote while adults must vote. Personally, I think it should be voluntary for 16/17 y.o&#039;s.

However, there are many who want to confuse separate issues of underage voting rights and compulsory voting. Compulsory voting must remain and we cannot allow the uderage voting rights to be a catalyst for campaign to have voluntary voting made universal.

3. Making INFORMED decisions

I have heard arguments that there needs to be more civics taught in school so they can make informed decision when voting. I totally agree. As a teacher, and within the restraints of the NSW DET Code of Conduct, I as often as I can practically teach students the nature of government and the voting system. 

However, the same must be said for adults of the general public. Who reading this blog has come across someone who does not understand preferencing (or the need to number each box etc) while we&#039;ve been handing out HTV&#039;s on election day. I suspect we all have. There needs to be an education campaign on how voting works in Australia.

As far as I can see there is no theoretical or moral reason not to let 16/17 y.o&#039;s the opportunity to vote. The only argument against it is a purely political reason, which in my opinion does not justify disagreeing with the idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent to see so much interest in this issue. It is one that should be debated at length. Having been involved in politics at different levels for a long time, even since I was about 15, this issue has been an important one to me. As a teacher now, I have even more of a keen insight into this issue. I thought that maybe with age my view would change. </p>
<p>There are many facets to it that I will summarise:</p>
<p>1. 16/17 y.o are not mature enough to make such a decision.</p>
<p>I would argue that to a large extent this is true. However, I would argue the same for 18-25 y.o&#8217;s. There are many underaged that are well informed to make a decision. They cannot be denied the right to vote.</p>
<p>2. Should it be voluntary or involuntary</p>
<p>This is a big and complicated issue. Should 16/17 y.o&#8217;s be given the option to not vote while adults must vote. Personally, I think it should be voluntary for 16/17 y.o&#8217;s.</p>
<p>However, there are many who want to confuse separate issues of underage voting rights and compulsory voting. Compulsory voting must remain and we cannot allow the uderage voting rights to be a catalyst for campaign to have voluntary voting made universal.</p>
<p>3. Making INFORMED decisions</p>
<p>I have heard arguments that there needs to be more civics taught in school so they can make informed decision when voting. I totally agree. As a teacher, and within the restraints of the NSW DET Code of Conduct, I as often as I can practically teach students the nature of government and the voting system. </p>
<p>However, the same must be said for adults of the general public. Who reading this blog has come across someone who does not understand preferencing (or the need to number each box etc) while we&#8217;ve been handing out HTV&#8217;s on election day. I suspect we all have. There needs to be an education campaign on how voting works in Australia.</p>
<p>As far as I can see there is no theoretical or moral reason not to let 16/17 y.o&#8217;s the opportunity to vote. The only argument against it is a purely political reason, which in my opinion does not justify disagreeing with the idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709/comment-page-1#comment-6155</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tallyroom.com.au/1709#comment-6155</guid>
		<description>DLP?  Just because they have had a fluke into the LCV does not mean they are hugely relevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DLP?  Just because they have had a fluke into the LCV does not mean they are hugely relevant.</p>
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